The Natural Aristocrat spoke with Ray Donovan’s Sandy Martin about her extraordinary performance as the multilayered, true to life Sandy Patrick.
There’s a family member in all of ours hidden somewhere in the soul of Sandy Patrick on the sixth season of Showtime’s Ray Donovan. Actress Sandy Martin’s portrayal was so effectively comforting that Mickey and Bunchy weren’t the only ones who let their guard down, it was us. Close your eyes and you can still visualize the iconic sizzle of a lit cigarette as Sandy rides off a heist as a presumed millionaire. Ice Cube’s “Drink The Kool-Aid” roaring in the background with the thumping heavy bass of the car’s audio system. A Donovan in every sense of the word.
Martin told The Natural Aristocrat about the grand experience of working on the series this past season. The juxtaposition of a character longing to escape her loneliness while robbing herself of the opportunity by taking the money bag. Only to realize it wasn’t impressing others that she was after… It was having a family to call her own again. Having a purpose instead of just a home.
Interview with Sandy Martin on Ray Donovan’s Sandy Patrick:
The Natural Aristocrat [Nir Regev]: Was it decided early on that you’d have the same first name on Ray Donovan? How did that happen?
Sandy Martin: All I know is by the time I was shooting my third episode, one of the producers said to me, “We wrote this role for you because you auditioned for us once before. You were so funny and great, we never forgot you!” I think because of that, they used my first name Sandy.
How often did you get to ad-lib on the show? I’ve seen a lot of fans, myself included, love the “Cop Kebab” bit!
(laughs) They have a little bit of wiggle room but mainly the reason I was attracted to the show is because the writing is so, so fantastic! And it’s up my alley. I mean, of course, I ad-libbed here and there. Like when I’m telling him all the jokes in the living room and they all rush out the front door, and I go “Wahh, fun buster!” That was definitely something I buttoned down the scene with. But you know the writing is fantastic, I love the writing on the show. I trust it!
Speaking of Ray Donovan’s writing, how do you feel the show depicts Sandy Patrick’s story arch relative to the Donovans? It seems like Sandy is riding in euphoria after she takes the money, only to discover there’s no one to show it off to. That all her old friends have passed.
I just think they need a hideout and remember that their long lost brother Cormac had a widow and she was a live wire and a lot of fun. But that’s not their first reason for looking her up! The first reason is that nobody would ever think to take the house of a widower from the Vietnam war which was so many years ago. They were smart to figure out to go to her house.
She mentions once or twice that she’s been a bit lonely and that’s why she’s playing horrible comedy nights at horrible bars. Making stupid jokes that she thinks are funny. She needs to meet some more friends because she’s lost quite a few of friends, as we find out later. The tricky part about Sandy Patrick is why would she run off with all their money when she finally has some family in her life? But I guess money talks, bullshit walks! (laughs)
Would you like there to be flashbacks showing Sandy and Cormac’s relationship next season?
Well yeah, but I don’t know what plastic surgery we’re going to need to have to make us believable! (laughs) Sandy Patrick is dedicated to every kooky aunt you’ve ever had that danced in a party bombed out of her mind, with a lampshade on her head. I just think that they stumble into coming to her house and then realize that, “Hey, we can relax around here!” I’m like a scammer myself. You know? I get in this nun’s outfit and he says, “Well, what are you doing?” And I said, “Haven’t you ever heard of a clerical discount?”
I’ll go out and pretend I’m a nun and beg on the street, I’ll do anything. So they hit gold when they arrived at my house… Because I’ll do anything to have all those hunky men around for me to put the make on! (laughs)
I thought whenever they said, “Go to Sandy’s,” on the show you knew something was going down. It always delievered too, like in the season 6 finale when you chopped that guy’s head off!
(laughs) I’d like to say that I come from these people because I have a lot of relatives that are detectives and cops in Brooklyn and stuff like that. But certainly me and my family are not running around chopping people’s heads off! I think it’s just that New Yorkie, Boston attitude, and I’m originally from Philadelphia.
I’ll never forget Esquire magazine once ran a survey on all these popular towns in the United States and Philadelphia came up as the vendetta state! (laughs) So, I’m used to that kind of rowdy East Coast toughee stuff. It’s a pleasure to be back in those shoes after living in L.A. for so long.
What was it like shooting that dance scene with Jon Voight? It felt organic and really had a classic Hollywood feel to it. As if Sandy and Mickey were right there dancing in your living room.
Yeah, Jon’s very creative in that sense! In the last few episodes when Bunchy’s in the room he dances with him a little as well. When Sandy was dancing with Mickey, I was playing that I was so bombed, that it was just making me sad that my husband wasn’t there.
Mickey tried to cheer me up and I’m just trying to function because I’m not used to plowing one whiskey after another. But when Sandy’s in this crowd, she’s just letting it flow. So I sort of played it like, “Okay, you want to dance? Well, I can barely stand up but I’ll have fun with you for a minute!”
I thought your character had a interesting relationship with Bunchy. One second you’re taking care of Bunch in a grandmotherly fashion then the next, you’re openly flirting with him. How did you feel about the scene where Bunchy tries out the priest uniform with Sandy in the room?
I’m really flirting with him, I say from the minute he walks up to my front porch that he’s “well endowed for an infant!” That was the clincher line for me! I had a couple of people swimming around me for jobs and when I read that line, I went, “Well, I’m in!”
Then, I showed him the back bedroom and he’s gonna have to sleep on the floor but I tell him, “I’m happy to share!” So I’m trying to get one of Bunchy and Mickey into my bed… But I don’t know as Sandy Patrick, the back story of Bunchy’s traumatic experience with his priest. She can’t play that because she doesn’t know that, you know? So she’s just like, “Oh come on, put that thing on! Don’t worry!” She’s a little bit lighthearted about it because she doesn’t know what the poor guy is going through.
I thought that was a really fun scene to do because I act like, “Come on, we’re going to take pictures! You’re just going to wear that.” I think he’s just uncomfortable wearing something different. I had no idea about his past history and that’s why I go, “Okay, come on you can put this on!”
I thought one of the most memorable scenes, if not the most memorable, this season was right after you stole the money. When you see Sandy smoking in the car and listening to Ice Cube rapping, delighted. It was just a really fun scene! When you were reading the script did you think she’d get away with it?
Oh, she thought she was going to get away with it! She just has a whim, she’s bombed, everyone’s passed out in her living room, then gets up and sees all that cash there and loses her mind! She stuffs the cash in her bag and takes her bottle of vodka and hits the road in her crappy car. I don’t think she thinks of the consequences too much at all. Her plan was to get together with her friends and wave some money around, take them for big dinners, and buy them things that they needed. She was gonna play God for two seconds.
In the back of my mind, in my back story… I think after I’ve spent some money, I’ll go back and return it, because I miss them. You know? The key to this character to me is how lonely she’s been and now she has a house full of fun. So when Bunchy catches me, chokes me, and is yelling “Where’s the money?! Get in the car!” Daryll is like wait a second, ‘This is a really old lady! Why are you tossing her around like that?’
And next thing you know we’re in the car and I’m telling this story about two guys, the snap monologue. One of my favorite pieces of material! Big Peter and Peter the painter, they were playing a game of snap and suddenly two 10s come up. Then Bunchy, even though he was so pissed at me and he’s lost so much because of me… He couldn’t help but think, “Christ what a funny old lady she is.” Dash Mihok had this kind of sneaky smile on his face after I finished that monologue.
My favorite Sandy joke this season was the cannibal clowns saying ‘You taste funny!’
(laughs) That was one of my favorites too! I love it! That’s one of my favorite jokes because it worked better than, “Did you know that pigeons die when they have sex? No. Well, the ones I have sex with do!” I think that’s one of the worst jokes I’ve come up with! But I’m trying it out because I want to do it a comedy night and Bunchy breaks my fun.
When you work on Ray Donovan, do they generally tell you your character arc ahead of time. Do you know if your character is going to make it into the next season or do you just go episode by episode?
They just tell you when you’re working and get over to Brooklyn because I live in L.A. now. You know I got very little direction. I mean, some people said a few little things to me but I just went with the rhythm I think is right for that character. Everybody was laughing so much that they didn’t want to mess with me as far as changing things up. But no you don’t really know what’s happening.
I jokingly said to show runner David Hollander, “Well… After chainsawing somebody’s head off I guess I’m not going to live very long!” (laughs) He goes, “Oh don’t worry, don’t worry! That’s not a problem at all.”
I thought your performance was incredible this season and you had great, seamless chemistry with the entire Donovan family. Especially with Mickey, all your scenes together felt so effortlessly natural on-screen.
Thank you! Jon Voight is a wonderful actor and he’s very thorough in his approach. One thing David Hollander told me is he couldn’t believe how easy it was for me to just sink into this family, and get all the different people. All their different jokes and rhythms. He was impressed by that. I said, “Well, these are my people. What are you talking about?!”
Do you feel your acting method has changed significantly since you started?
I’m very lucky that I can do drama and comedy believably. I go from ridiculously different roles. A couple of years ago I played this really sad sack, goofy, losing your mind, mother of Tennessee Williams in the last play he wrote called, A House Not Meant to Stand. It was in a renowned theatre here in L.A. called The Fountain Theatre and people just couldn’t believe that I went from Mac’s mom on It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia where I’m this weirdo who doesn’t speak, just grunts to very believably this sad old woman who’s just lost her son but has a sense of humor.
But now, Sandy Patrick to me is so thrilled to have people back into her life because she never remarried. And these are her people. Now they’re in, thick as thieves. I mean, they’re in it so deep, they have to stick together. They’re not going to just pull away from her house and say, “See you! We’re going to stick you with three bodies in your backyard!” I’m really glad I can switch gears and play different kinds of roles, where it’s a certain caliber of a person. Where you can say, ‘They’re not that awful yet!’
I feel that’s what makes Ray Donovan’s characters so special because they all have their own flaws but they’re still extremely likable. Every single one of them really, even dangerous ones like Sam Winslow.
Yeah, that’s true about Sam Winslow. I’m sad to see her go actually, I was like, “What?! Woah…” I unfortunately had no scenes with her. I have my own little pack back in the house of sin! (laughs)
I used to hang out with Tim Burton back in the Beetlejuice days because a friend of mine, Glenn Shadix, was playing the Interior Decorator (Otho). The big guy with the crew cut hair. He unfortunately is not with us anymore but he had a lot of parties at Tim Burton’s and his own house, so I knew him. And the DP on Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri was also the DP on Dumbo.
They were saying, “Where are we gonna get somebody who sounds real New Yorkie or East Coastie or whatever to play Michael Keaton’s (V. A. Vandevere) henchwoman?” The one guy (Ben Davis) who was the DP said, “Well, we had this funny old lady on Three Billboards, her name is Sandy Martin,” and Danny DeVito was sitting there and goes, “She’s on my show!” Then Tim Burton says, “You mean Sandy Martin from the 80s? Yeah, she is New Yorkie… Okay, let’s fly her out!” (laughs)
So I was given that job and it was great to see Tim again. I don’t have a very large role, but Tim Burton works magic with little funny characters bobbing in and out of his fantasies. I was thrilled to be there! I play the head of the secretarial pool and I have a bunch of secretaries that I bark at. They run around and help me!
Check out Sandy Martin’s official website to watch some artful moments in her Drama, Comedy, and Combo acting reels! Be sure to catch Dumbo when it arrives in cinemas across the U.S. on March 29, 2019.
Pollyanna McIntosh talks Darlin’ at NYC premiere (Exclusive Interview)
The Natural Aristocrat caught up with Darlin’ visionary and Walking Dead star Pollyanna McIntosh before the NYC premiere of the film at What the Fest!?
Pollyanna McIntosh’s picture Darlin’ debuted in the big apple last Thursday (3/21) to a warm reception at the What the Fest!? film festival. Screening in New York’s renowned IFC Center, mere blocks from NYU and beautiful Washington Square park, the film was comfortably home at the art house cinema. The eloquent McIntosh would later do a Q and A with fans post-credit roll, with more than a few Walking Dead devotees of Jadis/Anne in attendance!
The Natural Aristocrat had an opportunity to speak with McIntosh who starred in, directed, and wrote the picture just a few hours before the film’s smashing NYC premiere on the silver screen.
Interview with Pollyanna McIntosh on Darlin’ :
The Natural Aristocrat [Nir Regev]: You wrote the script for Darlin’ and following in Jack Ketchum’s [Dallas Mayr] work, who sadly passed away last year. I was curious what that was like?
Pollyanna McIntosh: It’s a good question because I first started coming to the character of ‘The Woman’ by doing Offspring which was based on novel of his. The Director / Producer of that film just sent me the book and said “Read this” which is very smart. It wasn’t with an offer, he just said, “Read this,” and I was like, “Do I get to play that woman? She’s amazing!” So I love Dallas’ writing and him as a person. I have so much respect and love for the man. Lucky (McKee) and Ketchum and co-wrote The Woman together. And of course Lucky directed it, that was the second one, and then now with Darlin’.
I was very conscious that it was gonna be the third in a series inspired by Ketchum. In many cases, written by him. But I was also aware that I really wanted to make it my own and make it really personal. And as a Writer / Director, that it had to come from my experience somewhat. That I had to be really grounded in it as my own story. So I spoke to him about what I was going to write and the idea that I had, and actually Dallas wasn’t so keen on writing about religion. It was something he didn’t want to do in his work. But I absolutely got his blessing to explore that part of the world in this story.
We had him visit on set that December that we were shooting in. So only a month before he passed away he came to visit us from New York, we weren’t sure if he’s going to be able to with his health. It was so great to see a great big smile on his face and grinning away! He absolutely loved the experience of being there and seeing it come together. So I feel like we’ve honored him with this film and it’s dedicated to him. But yeah… It’s no small thing to follow The Woman!
That’s one of the reasons I made it very much my own like I say but also there’s some homages to Lucky’s work as well. To that Ketchum / Lucky world that they made in The Woman, which I won’t say anything about because that will be for fans to find out.
The strongest line of the movie for me was when the Bishop [Bryan Batt] said, “There’s no after without a before.” Especially, the whole scene where they tarnish Darlin’ [Lauryn Canny] and dirty her up for the camera. How often do you feel that happens in the entertainment industry in general?
In the sense of trying to make somebody appear one way for their own benefit? It happens all the time. I think it’s unfortunately, a very human thing we do. Where we try and manipulate others to be what we want them to be, often for nefarious gain. That goes along really well with the larger theme of the film, which is the idea of the church taking over a woman’s body. Which is unfortunately a very real horror in our world today still.
As far as shooting that scene, I could feel that it was really working! I mean Lauryn Canny’s performance is so incredible and she really went there in that cage. She absolutely went for it! It’s funny that you bring up the line, “There can’t be an after without a before, just ask Jesus!” (laughs) Bryan Batt who plays the Bishop is one of the most fun people to work with. He would often say, “Just ask Jesus!” as kind of a one liner. (laughs)
It was also a line that was actually questioned whether it should be cut from the film… I fought very hard to keep that line in because it is ironic and it is slightly cheesy. I was well aware of that. But the bishop’s denial of who he really is, also in his sort of dad-joke references, and his absolute assurance of himself, makes it a ridiculous line to say under the circumstances. I also thought it made sense with his belief that he was doing a good thing, him trying to mask his work in that.
That was important to him to be in that denial. And it’s often an abuser’s perspective that they have to find reasons that what they’re doing is right, in order for them to live with it. Which sounds ironic. But of course, it’s not a black and white being a bad guy.
“It’s not a black and white thing being a bad guy.”
For your Walking Dead fans, you have three cast members (Cooper Andrews, Sabrina Gennarino, and Thomas Francis Murphy) in the film, and especially I felt Cooper Andrews had a major role. You have great chemistry with him on-screen! I loved the scene in the car, it was quite funny. ‘The Woman’ was looking almost like a walker.
Oh thank you! Yeah, I know it’s funny that there was an image that went out online recently of me as ‘The Woman’ and a lot of Walking Dead fans were saying, “Oh, she looks great as a zombie,” and then I’m like “I’m not a zombie!” (laughs) But there kind of is a little bit of an undead look to her for sure.
Being a Director is typically pictured as this creative authority figure. Many will visualize that symbolic Director’s chair when imagining it. Is it surreal to direct your old cast mates, your peers, and friends?
Yeah! It should should have been maybe weirder than it was. It felt very natural and right. I felt very confident in my role as Director on the film, especially with the actors because I’ve been there. I’m from that world. And of course, I was in that world in the film playing ‘The Woman.’ So it was like we were all in it together. I thought it was really ironic that I cast Sabrina Gennarino and Thomas Francis Murphy as a prostitute and a cardinal respectively because there’s a kind of British party theme that we have. It’s called “Tarts and Vicars.” And so I really cast them in the right and left of that and very different roles for them than the roles they’re playing on The Walking Dead with me.
Sabrina is such a delightful and excited fun actor, very focused into what she’s doing. She was a delight to to direct for that reason. Cooper wants to hear it straight like it is and one of the things he compliments me on is that I always did that. I think that’s one of the benefits of being friends as well. But also just being an actress, knowing that I’d rather hear it straight from the Director than be sort of babied in any way.
Cooper (Andrews) wants to hear it straight like it is.
So if something wasn’t working for me, I’d be quite clear with him, like this physical things happening or whatever and he appreciated that. I don’t want that to sound like he needed it or that he was doing all sorts of things wrong. (laughs) We all need direction, that’s the point. And that was something that worked pretty well. We just had such a laugh! Me and Cooper in that car is such a fun scene to shoot.
We were really enjoying it, actually we went too far in that scene. We lost our police escort and we got pulled over by the cops, me and Cooper with no driver’s licenses. Looking the way I did, and him being a big guy they thought that we were in a real fight together.
Was that police car chase in Darlin’ legit then?
No, not the car you see! (laughs) But it did turn a fake cop car chase to a real cop car chase with another cop car getting in between us, and not realizing we’re filming. The car was swerving, you know? So that was that was bizarre.
I’d be remiss without going on about Thomas Francis Murphy, who’s just an incredible character actor. Though he doesn’t think he had much to do in the movie, it was so important that the Cardinal was believable and I thought he did a great job!
How do you compare directing Darlin’ to your directing experiences in the early days like The Woolgatherer?
Oh, thank you for your research! (smiles) I think the same joy, the same excitement, the same adrenaline rush of seeing people achieve great things. Which I definitely had on this film as well. But it’s very different directing theatre to directing film. Of course, I’m glad that I’ve had so many experiences as an actor on sets, where I sort of got free training in a way.
How do you feel you’ve evolved as an actress starting from the age of 16 to now?
I think I’m less self-conscious. I’ve gotten more brave and I guess just the same experience of growing up that most people have has happened for me and my career too. I feel more confident in what I’m doing and less afraid to take chances.
Whats it like meeting fans at the conventions, Walker Stalkers, and all that?
It’s the biggest joy meeting fans especially of this show. I mean with The Woman fans I always go, “Oh God, you love The Woman!” because you know I have such a loving connection with that film. And it’s the same with Walking Dead. I absolutely love respect the show and I think anyone who loves that show like we’ve got lot to talk about. We’ve got a lot in common.
It’s been an honor to experience it through other people’s eyes, their love of the show, by them just seeing you and going “Oh my god, it’s you!” I know that’s because of a bigger thing and it just feels really cool and lucky. It’s like a giant connector with people.
Do you feel you would do such a project like Darlin’ again where you write, direct, and star in it?
Yes, I love it! I love it! I did want to ensure that ‘The Woman’ wasn’t the lead in this film, partly because I felt that we’d done such an amazing thing with her in The Woman (film). Taking a silent character into the city is gonna be a difficult way to do something new and to keep people for a whole feature with somebody who really doesn’t speak that much. I didn’t want to do the same thing that we’d done in The Woman. But I also was aware that I wanted to make sure I was behind the camera as much as possible.
I think there’s a good balance where she’s this shadowy figure and then she really lets it rip as well but she’s not the lead. So Darlin’ was that for me.
Did you select Lauryn Canny yourself for the role?
Yeah, I mean we had a great cast director David Guglielmo in L.A. who brought in a bunch of different young women for me to meet and audition. Lauryn was the first one that came in the room and she was the first one I met downstairs. I thought if she’s half as talented as she is beautiful, interesting, cool, kind and down to earth, somebody you really want to work with… You can see what a hard worker she is just from meeting her.
And I thought if she’s all those things and a great actor, please let her be! Lauryn was amazing and blew me away with her performance! We auditioned a bunch of other people after but I really wanted her. She was the one.
We spoke a bit off camera about how fantastic you are at expressing a character on-screen through facial expressions and body language. Even if you don’t have many lines for a scene. How are you able as an actress to convey characters like Jadis and ‘The Woman’ so strongly without having those monologue-like lines to win the audience over?
Thank you, I’ll take the compliment! I think honestly, if you’re connecting and you’re feeling a great sense of reality and the experience that your character is going through. Who they are, what they want and what they’re trying to get, then you’re always alive with the character and with the drama of the situation. So to me it doesn’t feel that different doing that with less words than it does doing it with dialogue. Those are the kind of performances that always grabbed me when I was younger.
I’ve always wondered, why didn’t they pair Jadis up with Rick?
They tease it a lot with Rick! (smiles) They probably did me a favor because those Michonne fans, they they love themselves some Michonne! You know it’s a beautiful love story and it always has been. They’re so equal in their relationship and they work so well together. I think that would really tear people apart, if he were to just cheat on her with somebody else. I mean that just seems crazy!
I think you could have ruined it a bit.
Well, people have their different opinions. (laughs) But I think that toeing the line in the way we did with it was really fun and took it in unexpected directions. And I don’t know because of course, the continuation of the story may happen with the films that they’re making. So Rick and Jadis/Anne may very well be reunited in the first feature that’s going to be made.
We’ll have to see. But I don’t know if they’re necessarily going to be in a romantic relationship.
They should be!
Do you think so? (laughs) Do you want to write some fan fiction?
If you had to describe Darlin’ in one sentence for people who didn’t catch The Woman or Offspring, what would you say?
I would say it is about a teenage feral girl coming in from the woods and the Catholic Church getting hold of her, and wanting to prove their miraculous work through conversing her into a good girl and taking her to our holy communion.
I could really just say a sentence as long as I wanted! You said a single sentence, I really could just carry on right saying a whole paragraph! (smiles)
Is that an arrow on your finger by the way?
Yeah, I have an arrow here, these four quivers are for me and my three sisters. This is all the sisters. The moon is for my boyfriend who’s called Van Madden, his last name is Van Madden. He’s not called Van Madden that sounds like I’m dating Vin Diesel or something. (laughs)
Awesome, thanks a lot Pollyanna!
Pollyanna McIntosh’s Darlin’ is a Hood River Entertainment Production.
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Sir Ben Kingsley discusses Adolf Eichmann portrayal in Operation Finale
I had an opportunity to speak with legend Sir Ben Kingsley about his complex portrayal of Adolf Eichmann in Operation Finale.
There are few actors in this world as renowned and captivating as Sir Ben Kingsley for delivering all-time great performance after all-time great performance. In Operation Finale, Sir Ben Kingsley portrays a man known for pure real-life evil, the architect of the holocaust, in a multi-deminesonial performance. Initially, Kingsley’s Eichmann is presented in Operation Finale as a seemingly ordinary father, who’s disappointed in his son Klaus after he lashes out against his (unknowingly) Jewish girlfriend. He poses the question, “This is how I raised you?” and to go make things right with Sylvia. The audience is then presented with an image of Eichmann sitting with his younger child, enjoying watching trains pass. An innocent activity out of context, a truly surreal, horrifying visual in-context as Eichmann.
It’s the first time in a film we see Eichmann in the context of his family life, showing the audience, these are in actor Lior Raz’ (who portrays Isser Harel in Operation Finale) words “real, real people” who did these horrible things. They are not otherworldly beings or monsters crafted in a book but real people who did the unspeakable. It’s of vital importance to note this fact because as Lior Raz has commented, “It could still happen today.”
One of the most enduring images in Operation Finale is that of an Eichmann being more preoccupied with wiping ink off his shirt sleeve as Jews are shot without mercy in trenches. Eichmann describes that he might have seen Peter Malkin’s sister among them holding her baby, asking for it to be saved, during what appears to be a flashback. Yet, is referenced by Eichmann as what he thinks Malkin believes happened right after. Leading the question if Eichmann recounted what did truly happen or not in the film. Yet, Kingsley’s Eichmann attempts to plead that his crimes were that of his superiors and he was just doing his job. That he should not take the brunt of the blame, or as he calls it in Operation Finale, be the “scapegoat” to Peter Malkin’s [Oscar Isaac] people in Israel.
Eventually, Kingsley’s Eichmann agrees to go willingly to answer for his unspeakable crimes if he is allowed the promise of seeing his wife again. Earlier Eichmann is constantly concerned if is family is safe until Oscar Isaac’s Peter Malkin confirms that they are indeed safe, “What do you think we are?” It’s ironic that Eichmann is so concerned about what might happen to see family when he saw through a plan to see millions of other ones to be permanently ruined.
Sir Ben Kingsley told me that he “was was very privileged to look at him (Eichmann) from the perspective of his victims.” How the “perception of the role was not defined by his [Eichmann’s] ideology,” and rather his preparation for the role, ‘was defined by acquaintance and friendship with his victims.’
Interview with Sir Ben Kingsley on Operation Finale :
Sir Ben Kingsley: Hello Nir!
Nir Regev: Hey, so you played a character that was very complex. I felt you brought a lot of sympathetic elements.
Sir Ben Kingsley: Good.
Nir Regev: It was an interesting character where even after he got caught initially and tried denying it, where I felt maybe again they caught the wrong guy. I’m really interested to hear your research and general inspirations to play this kind of completely new perspective, on what people envision as just evil, and the architect, and all that kind of stuff.
Sir Ben Kingsley: I think that the actual trial showed us how he was perceived from the point of view of his victims. The first time ever I think, that such a trial was televised worldwide and the world had an opportunity to see his victims point to him. In other words, he seemed to be in that glass box shaped and defined, not by his ideology but by his victims. That’s where the truth emerges. I spent time as you probably know with Simon Wiesenthal when I portrayed him in Murderers Among Us, the HBO series. He was the great Nazi hunter, who in fact discovered that Eichmann was in Buenos Aires. And I’ve already played that man, which is very interesting.
Then of course, I moved into Schindler’s List under Steven’s guidance and met the Pfefferberg family and other survivors on the list. And then I was graced with the opportunity of playing Otto Frank, the remarkable father of Anne Frank. In the film footage of the trial, you see the enormous grief unleashed from the witnesses’ perspective. I, from all the wonderful people that I’ve mentioned, including Miep Gies who hid Anne Frank in the attic with her family, was at the receiving end in them of a tidal wave of grief… Accompanied by an extraordinary dignity. And it is that wave of grief that defines what these people did to people. So my perception of the role was not defined by his ideology. And my preparation for the role, was thank goodness, defined by my acquaintance and my friendship with his victims. I was very privileged to look at him from the perspective of his victims.
Nir Regev: The scene in which you wipe off ink and it’s kind of almost like a flashback. I was wondering when I was watching the movie was that supposed to have actually happened? Or was that you just trying to kind of hone in on Peter [Malkin] and try to say ‘Oh, this is what you think I did?’
Sir Ben Kingsley: In the film, he mentions the child had some blood splashing on him. There is a very bizarre connection between cruelty and sentimentality. And also when a soul is stained, there is some obsessive, repetitive gesture that sometimes accompanies that. Like the famous washing of the hands of Lady Macbeth. And it’s a similar kind of dramatic gesture, that I think encapsulates the bizarre combination of utter indifference to the fate of people and yet making sure that his shoelaces are tied properly, and his tie is straight. It’s a very odd combination but it does exist.
Of that fastidiousness, in the dress. And also of course the scientific process, mechanical process, military process of the fastidiousness with lists and film footage, and photographs of destroying as many of Europe’s Jews as they possibly could. It’s very hard for us to understand but it is an extraordinary combination.
Nir Regev: Thank you very much!
Sir Ben Kingsley: Thank you!
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